"I don't believe in hypnosis"

Created: 02/23/16 07:28:06AM by kathryn-monahan-sheetz

Last Update: 08/14/17 04:50:57AM by Fable Goodman
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Megatalented
@megatalented

08/07/17 01:04:48AM

405 posts

That's one hell of a pre-talk John! Clearly paid by the hour ;)

John Cleesattel
@john-cleesattel

08/07/17 11:46:22AM

3,185 posts

Simon Tebbenham:
That's one hell of a pre-talk John! Clearly paid by the hour ;)

Takes right about 5 minutes... but I have zero fallout.

H.Y.P.N.O.S.I.S.
@hypnosis

08/07/17 01:13:27PM

1,011 posts

Condense. Let's get to it. Action!!

We learn by doing. We remember by repeating. Let's stop repeating stories that no longer serve us and create new ones that do. 

Daniel Oromaner, MBA, CCHt
@daniel-oromaner-mba-ccht

08/08/17 01:03:02PM

46 posts

Mark Tyrrell:
Personally I feel that hypnosis is a natural characteristic of consciousness and when used by a person during communication to hypnotise another person is a tool and like any tool can be used to heal or hurt and is not automatically therapeutic. Hypnosis can be misused (often unintentionally as with false memory syndrome) as well as used to transform lives.  

Mark:
Have you looked into "false memory syndrome?" Do you really believe that a hypnotherapist COULD or WOULD implant false memories of childhood abuse? In my practice I have dealt with way too many cases of physical and/or sexual abuse. I don't for a moment believe that any of these experiences weren't real, or could have been "planted" by a hypnotherapist.

Those who have looked into this "false memory syndrome" (as I have) tend to find those promoting it to be either compromised or part of the pedophilia practices themselves! In hypnosis we can (lovingly) help a person remember traumas and heal them. This can be dangerous to the "powers that be." Thus, there are, and have been, all kinds of methods to discount the stories of these experiences.
In truth, there are almost always cracks in the facade of respectability and people who come forward with tales of abuse. Usually, law enforcement and psychological/legal experts come to the defense of those accused and the investigations go nowhere. Sometimes, after the perpetrator is dead and buried do the stories surface again--such as was the case for Jimmy Savile, who abused children for decades and counted the Royal Family of England as close friends. Were accusations made about him for many years? Of course! Were they discounted or hushed, sure!

PLEASE do the research! Maybe with brainwashing one could create false memories, but never in standard hypnosis! That "syndrome" is part of the cover up. There is a movement called "Believe the Children." I think everyone in our profession should become knowledgeable on this subject.



Daniel

Inner Power Hypnosis & Coaching

 

James Hazlerig
@james-hazlerig

08/12/17 09:57:18PM

2,678 posts

There are a couple of ways I might reply to someone saying, "I don't believe in hypnosis," depending on my mood and my impression of the person I'm talking to. Here are a few:

"That's okay; hypnosis believes in you."

OR

"That's the great thing about science. It works whether you believe in it or not."

OR

"Most people who don't know what hypnosis really is don't believe it's real."

OR

"Yeah, I don't believe in spinach." When they express incredulity, I say, "I've seen spinach in a cartoon. When a guy ate it, he heard music and became super-strong. I don't think that's possible. I also don't believe in roadrunners or coyotes." If they don't get it, I go on, "Of course you don't believe in hypnosis, because all you've encountered is the cartoon version where people's eyes spin around and they become zombies. You're right not to believe in it. But of course real hypnosis is not what you've seen on TV."

James Hazlerig
@james-hazlerig

08/12/17 10:17:08PM

2,678 posts

[quote="Daniel Oromaner, MBA, CCHt"]
as with false memory syndrome) as well as used to transform lives.   [/quote] Mark:Have you looked into "false memory syndrome?" Do you really believe that a hypnotherapist COULD or WOULD implant false memories of childhood abuse? In my practice I have dealt with way too many cases of physical and/or sexual abuse. I don't for a moment believe that any of these experiences weren't real, or could have been "planted" by a hypnotherapist. Those who have looked into this "false memory syndrome" (as I have) tend to find those promoting it to be either compromised or part of the pedophilia practices themselves! In hypnosis we can (lovingly) help a person remember traumas and heal them. This can be dangerous to the "powers that be." Thus, there are, and have been, all kinds of methods to discount the stories of these experiences. In truth, there are almost always cracks in the facade of respectability and people who come forward with tales of abuse. Usually, law enforcement and psychological/legal experts come to the defense of those accused and the investigations go nowhere. Sometimes, after the perpetrator is dead and buried do the stories surface again--such as was the case for Jimmy Savile, who abused children for decades and counted the Royal Family of England as close friends. Were accusations made about him for many years? Of course! Were they discounted or hushed, sure!PLEASE do the research! Maybe with brainwashing one could create false memories, but never in standard hypnosis! That "syndrome" is part of the cover up. There is a movement called "Believe the Children." I think everyone in our profession should become knowledgeable on this subject. DanielInner Power Hypnosis & Coaching  [/quote]

Daniel,

I have done my research. I have looked into False Memory Syndrome. Have you read Elizabeth Loftus's The Myth of Repressed Memory or Pendergrast's Victims of Memory? Loftus has literally done the research; she's the leader in actual memory experiments.

If you'd read their work, you'd know that no one accuses hypnotherapists of intentionally implanting false memories, but you'd also know that it doesn't take hypnosis to produce a false memory; in fact most of those who suffer from false memories were not working with trained hypnotists but with therapists with far too little understanding of hypnosis. Loftus has demonstrated in experiment after experiment that false memories are stunningly easy to create; Pendergrast shows how it happens in therapy and how FMS has destroyed lives and families.

It's also never been demonstrated that memories experienced in hypnosis are any more reliable than any other memory. Certainly, some memories experienced in hypnosis are accurate, but they are not reliable simply because they were experienced in hypnosis; in fact, hypnosis makes memories less reliable (because they are subject to outside influence) but more compelling.

Of course, if you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is part of a pedophilia cover-up, you're never going to recognize the truth about how memory works. In fact, you've probably decided by now that I'm a pawn of the pedophiliac conspiracy.

I realize that this is a sensitive topic. Far too many victims of rape and abuse are afraid to speak up, and far too often they are discounted. But that does not justify hypnotists clinging to outdated psychological theories, nor does it justify us traumatizing our clients with irresponsible methods.

Best,

James

Daniel Oromaner, MBA, CCHt
@daniel-oromaner-mba-ccht

08/13/17 12:19:42AM

46 posts

[quote="James Hazlerig"]
[/quote] Daniel,I have done my research. I have looked into False Memory Syndrome. Have you read Elizabeth Loftus's The Myth of Repressed Memory or Pendergrast's Victims of Memory? Loftus has literally done the research; she's the leader in actual memory experiments.If you'd read their work, you'd know that no one accuses hypnotherapists of intentionally implanting false memories, but you'd also know that it doesn't take hypnosis to produce a false memory; in fact most of those who suffer from false memories were not working with trained hypnotists but with therapists with far too little understanding of hypnosis. Loftus has demonstrated in experiment after experiment that false memories are stunningly easy to create; Pendergrast shows how it happens in therapy and how FMS has destroyed lives and families.It's also never been demonstrated that memories experienced in hypnosis are any more reliable than any other memory. Certainly, some memories experienced in hypnosis are accurate, but they are not reliable simply because they were experienced in hypnosis; in fact, hypnosis makes memories less reliable (because they are subject to outside influence) but more compelling. Of course, if you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is part of a pedophilia cover-up, you're never going to recognize the truth about how memory works. In fact, you've probably decided by now that I'm a pawn of the pedophiliac conspiracy.I realize that this is a sensitive topic. Far too many victims of rape and abuse are afraid to speak up, and far too often they are discounted. But that does not justify hypnotists clinging to outdated psychological theories, nor does it justify us traumatizing our clients with irresponsible methods.Best,James[/quote]

Hi James,
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the decades of paid "experts" who have testified, written books and articles defending certain practices that later were discovered to be total shams. Did you know that quite a few doctors in the 1950's claimed that cigarette smoking wasn't harmful? In fact, it was recommended as a good way for women to lose weight? Of course, many years later, unethical financial remunerations were discovered between tobacco companies and said physicians. Similarly, did you know the American Medical Association was sued by a Chiropractors association and it was proven in court that there was an organized campaign by doctors and the AMA to label Chiropractors as "quacks"?

Did you know that the original ("scientific") research study from which the countless media reports that eating eggs is dangerous because eggs unduly boost your cholesterol and that Americans should eat no more than one egg a week, actually was paid for by General Mills (the nation's largest cereal producer)? Did you know that despite media reports and what too many doctors tell their patients, that "chemical imbalance" has never been proven as a cause of depression, and that the Federal Trade Commission actually won in court against a major drug company because said drug company couldn't PROVE a line in their TV ad that said, "your depression MAY be due to a chemical imbalance"?

I could go on. Naivete can be charming, but considering how many subtle and not-so-subtle attacks we "fringe" hypnotherapists receive from the mainstream healthcare community, I welcome the opportunity to suggest it might be a good idea for you to be less trusting. Even the fact that the State of Texas bans you from calling yourself a "hypnotherapist" so you can only call yourself a "hypnotist" just like the stage hypnotists who do no therapy, is an example of this de-legitimizing trend.

So, no, I didn't read those books. However, I looked up "The Myth of Repressed Memory" and the Amazon description contains this paragraph:

"This book reveals that despite decades of research, there is absolutely no controlled scientific support for the idea that memories of trauma are routinely banished into the unconscious and then reliably recovered years later. Since it is not actually a legitimate psychological phenomenon, the idea of "recovered memory"--and the movement that has developed alongside it--is thus closer to a dangerous fad or trendy witch hunt."

Granted I have not, and will not, read the book, but it almost seems to question the well-established concept of REPRESSION. Now, to be fair James, I don't know about any training in psychology you may or may not have had. To my knowledge, there is no hypnotherapy school in the USA that requires let's say a bachelor's degree in psychology, although I have argued for such a policy on these forum boards. Not only is my undergraduate degree in psychology, but my master's degree is in psychology too. In addition, my Graduate Record Exam score in psychology was at the 99th percentile. In fact, it was a bit higher than the lowest score needed to be counted at the 99th percentile. One could make the claim that I had the highest score in the country that year! I could make the indisputable claim that not one person scored higher than me in terms of statistical significance.

Normally, I would end this post with a link to my website, where you would see that I not only make that claim here, but also on my website. Any of my competitors in Arizona could sue me for false advertising if I could not prove that claim--but they haven't, and I can. The problem is, the moderators of these boards seem to think when I post a link to my site that I am violating the rules by advertising something. Yet, a perusal of my site shows I sell NOTHING other than my hypnotherapy services to local clients! I find it highly unlikely that one of the few people who read my posts would live in the Phoenix metropolitan area and look me up for my services! If I were selling a book or classes for hypnotherapists on my website, then their removal of my links would make sense. I am not. I do it JUST so people can easily understand my background, which I list in detail on the Credentials page of my website. Nevertheless, I mention my background here just so you will understand I have a rather good understanding of psychology. (And please feel free to peruse my Credentials page, if you like.)

So, let's get back to the subject at hand. The fact that the book summary quoted above says there is "no controlled scientific support for the idea that memories of trauma are routinely banished into the unconscious . . . " already tells me there is something fishy going on here. If the author sets up the straw man that only "controlled scientific support" is valid for psychological principles, and discounts perhaps a century of clinical experience documented by some of the great psychologists of all time, then I am going to question the premise. Have you taken many courses in experimental psychology James? The history and systems of psychology? Well I have. One can pretty much design a study to prove or disprove whatever you want! Plus, there have been too many documented cases of various "scientific studies" just deleting cases that didn't fit their preferred (or paid for) theory! Let's remember that EVERY drug that was approved by the FDA and later withdrawn as dangerous was approved based on "scientific" studies!

Repression is a real phenomenon! A young woman who had only FOUR memories before the age of 12 is the reason I got into hypnotherapy. Over time we discovered she had been sexually abused as a child by her father, her father's friends and some of their children! And, in fact, most of those memories came back without the use of hypnosis. If you are going to HTL this month, please look me up and I will be happy to recount in person many of the numerous cases of repressed memories of physical and/or sexual abuse that have come out through my healing work. And yes, there ARE credible investigators who have looked into those writing books and articles on "False Memory Syndrome" who found the authors' motives and methods were quite questionable. It has been years since I read them, but I am sure a Google search will provide the answers.

I don't really care what some "scientist" or "psychologist" whose motives may be corrupt says on the subject! I have a decade of clinical hypnotherapy experience and forty years of working in various aspects of psychology and human behavior. So no, I don't think you are part of a pedophilia cover-up; I just think you are like too many I have encountered on these boards who are trusting and don't read books and studies with a critical/skeptical eye!

And, please let me know if you are accusing me of: "traumatizing our clients with irresponsible methods?" Because it sure seems that you are accusing me of doing that. So, if you are, please respond with just exactly how you think I am doing it.

Thanks for responding!

Daniel
Certified Clinical Hypnotherapist
Inner Power Hypnosis & Coaching

 

Daniel Oromaner, MBA, CCHt
@daniel-oromaner-mba-ccht

08/13/17 12:49:47AM

46 posts

James,

After finishing my response above I did a little Google search on Dr. Loftus. Is seems she has a whole cottage industry going for herself in "false memory syndrome!" In fact, most of the Google results are mainstream media articles touting her work! Isn't that interesting? (I'm sure you have no idea how many rich and powerful people are invested in covering up pedophilia in the USA and other countries!)

How much do you think Dr. Loftus makes as an "expert witness" in high-profile criminal cases when she testifies? How many perpetrators have gotten off scot-free as a result of her work?

Since you have to know what to look for, I thought I would provide a link to a website page that I totally agree with on the subject: "Facts about the Hoax of the False Memory Syndrome." In my opinion, EVERYONE who works in our field and especially those who read your post, should read that page and what it says about Dr. Loftus!

I hope this encourages you to dig a little deeper before supporting the work of someone who has been responsible for freeing many horrendously-guilty perpetrators, and I'm sure made herself rich in the process!

Daniel
Inner Power Hypnosis & Coaching

James Hazlerig
@james-hazlerig

08/13/17 07:13:27AM

2,678 posts

Ah, yes, Daniel, the old "if you get paid for your work, you must be dishonest" argument.

By that reasoning, I must say that I believe hypnosis is effective only because I get paid to do it. My choice to be a hypnotist couldn't have anything at all to do with my sincerely held views of the world or my belief that it helps people. I get paid and paid well, so I must be a hypocrite. Seriously? Of course, you're guilty of that, too, if you charge for your services.

Richard Nongard promotes mindfulness and hypnosis only because he sells courses. Scott Sandland and Richard Clark think a hypnosis convention is a good idea only because they charge money for it.  It's a sad and cynical view of the world, and I feel sorry for anyone who lives in that world.

And of course, the old "if mainstream media supports it, it must be part of the Evil Conspiracy."

For your information, I've watched and read attacks and criticisms of Dr. Loftus (and of Pendergrast), and I've also watched and read their works and interviews. I know which side I find more credible, and I know which side comes off sounding like paranoid loonies.

Then you've coupled that with "if someone was exonerated in a court of law, it's a miscarriage of justice!" Guess what? The accused is considered innocent until proven guilty. I'm thrilled that Dr. Loftus has helped innocent people avoid incarceration, though the accusations against them by people suffering from FMS have still destroyed their lives.

Not far from where I live, a family that ran a daycare was accused of horrific crimes and convicted based on the testimony of children who made impossible claims against them. They have only recently been exonerated and released, decades later. The child therapist who started the crusade against them is STILL IN PRACTICE ... 

Have you ever noticed that when hypnotists are doing regression to uncover "repressed memories," the unifying factor in different "repressed memories" is always the hypnotist? All the alien abductees go to the same hypnotist. All the victims of Satanic Ritual Abuse end up with the same hypnotist. You'd think that just once, one of the Satanist's victims would end up with the Alien hypnotist, and vice-versa, but that literally never happens.

Look, Daniel, I know I'm not going to convince you. Any evidence I present that is contrary to your views will be seen as an indication of how deep and terrible your pet conspiracy is. But I do hope that my posts will be read by newer hypnotists so that they won't get sucked into your nonsense.

Roy Hunter
@roy-hunter

08/13/17 02:50:09PM

1,723 posts

Rather than going to an extreme position for or against false memories, we should acknowledge the fact that memory is not infallible...it can and often does get altered over time, especially when emotion is involved. For example, two children can witness a fight at school, and give a teacher different versions just minutes later. Two siblings also give different versions of an event to a parent right after it happens, with each sibling believing his or her version.

When emotions are involved, those emotions can alter our own perceptions of past events. In other words, a client can create his or her own false memories through time...but when I facilitate regression, I let the client know that we are dealing with PERCEPTIONS, which often are a combination of fact and fantasy.

Also, I know from experience on the CLIENT side of a mishandled regression that a hypnotist with a preconceived opinion can implant false memories. I have TWO conflicting sets of memories for the same event that happened during my childhood regarding a near-death experience because hypnotist #1 was certain that it was a UFO abduction. The only thing missing in that regression was X-files background music. Regression #2 (many months later) resulted in my perception of the bright light as being a death angel who came to prevent me from dying because it was not my time.

I detailed this event in the chapter on the risk of false memories that is included in the book on regression therapy that Bruce Eimer and I co-authored. Any of you who attend HypnoThoughts Live are welcome to ask me about the NDE that I experienced during childhood. 

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